I can not figure this one out. Why is it that Sean thinks That Carb was not aware of the issues with all the industry for months and maybe years. There is a movement to get CARB and EPA to harmonize. In a meeting at CARBS offices with over twenty parties present including myself the issue of lables was brought up by myself to adress the confusion of what the Federal EPA aproved for our machines 800 and 1600 the lable to get everything in the open is a federal lable not a carb lable and for once can you get your facts streight. I understand that you do not like me or joyner but you must stop. Leave buggy news to more issues that the consumers can enjoy talking about. There is never a winner in you type of aproach. Again there are over a thousand companies that are in need of change at CARB to survive and I am one that will work with CARB and spend a grear deal of money on studies to show that the buggie industry is not causing the polution issues.

for example
5 years or 10000 thousand km your emmision system must operate
we do not ride our machines this much. think about the whole industry not just your self. I can not sit by and not do something The entire sand buggie and car industry will be lost if interested parties do not work together and if Sean and Rob want to be on their own and not join thousand of people that are going to be effected then go ahead. CARB is working with our groups because we are showing that we are trying to come into compliance. The issues with CARB and EPA are getting better EPA just launched their new computer based certification system that will now take alot of the confusion away When you apply for epa you can also apply for carb on their system and it is sent to carb once you are set up in both systems this is great. And to point out Sean is the one that said quote That he checked with EPA and their is no no no no 800cc or 1600cc epa certified machines. There is alot of work to be done and I would ask that Sean and Rob to leave CARB staff alone so that we can work on the new durability test procedures . The phone calls from them even to other parties are not going to get it changed. We are a trying to get an industry to stay a float. Ty to not be so self centered and think of only yourself.

at the sand show i will be there the entire week and weekend there are about fifty of use that will meet to discuss CARB ISSUES. Some of the parties that are already working on this issues have called me and I have sent them paperwork to get started One being Stu from Blade.

I hope that this does not upset anyone, It is time to work on the bigger picture. And agian all our lable are aproved by the federal government and that is why CARB and the EPA are trying to harmonize so this does not happen again and I apluad them.

JOHN BURNS

i agree with lafngas, this is going on to long, stop bitching sean.........



offroadkarter signing out......

Dear John,

While you were working with CARB to become compliant we were already CARB compliant. We spoke to Briggs & Stratton, Kohler and Robin Subaru about the new ruling concerning testing the engine with the vehicle. They have had CARB-EPA approved engines for years. This new ruling could discriminate against these companies if their engines cannt not be used any more for go-karts and sandrails under the SSI or LSI certification. This would not be fair to these companies. I look forward to more clarification from CARB on this issue. These engines have been used in a variety of applications. Their engines are used on these types of vehicles by a variety of companies like ours. One of the number one complaints about Chinese go-karts or sandrails is quality and parts availability on engines. Companies like Briggs & Stratton, Kohler and Robin Subaru offer two years parts and labor warranty while most Chinese sandrails importers offer 30-90 days part warranty at best.

Parts have always been an issue on Chinese vehicles. On related issue: Please send Lafagas his parts, he has waited a long time and he has clealy supported you in this argument on BN. He really need his parts if he is going to continue to advocate whatever your position is now or in the future!

While your company and other companies had an issue with complying with CARB certification, companies like Stinger and our company did not. We complied with the system that was already in place under LSI certification.

I think CARB should give sandrail manufacturers the choice regarding how they get a certified engine in the off-road vehicle they sell. I currently prefer to buy engines that are already CARB-EPA approved under the LSI guidelines. I would also like the option to have the engine certified with the vehicle. We are working in concert with CARB, which is why all of our sandrails have had EPA-CARB certified engines since day one.

I spoke to John at Suspensions Unlimited more than six months ago regarding his sandrails having EPA-CARB certified engines. Do not accuse us of working against what the industry is trying to do. Advocating complying with the existing CARB certification does not make us self-centered or wrong. Prior to this new ruling from CARB it was illegal to sell your 800cc and 1600cc sandrails in California. Did this stop you from selling your vehicles in California? I would have attended that meeting had I been in your position. Without this new ruling from CARB you and your dealers could have been fined heavily if CARB enforced the laws that was on the books. So please do not talk about us being self centered. This new ruling did nothing for us but it did everything for you. Have you ever played Monopoly?

We did not think it was a good idea to sell thousands of vehicles with the hope that CARB would make a new ruling that would make the vehicles we already sold legal. This was a risk we were unwilling to make and we did not want our dealers to shoulder that liability. We were the first company to sell sandrails with LSI approved engines in California. Many Chinese companies have imported sandrails that have fake EPA stickers, as you are well aware. I think you would agree that Chinese companies should be stopped and the importer fined for violating the law that the rest of us have had to abide by. Selling sandrails with FAKE EPA or FAKE EPA-CARB stickers is unfair competition. Most consumers (and some BN moderators) obviously donot undersrtand that CARB and EPA certification also demonstrates an engines durability. It hurts the consumer when they buy a vehicle that has a FAKE sticker. Some people call this bitching, I call it the truth. I think the consumer should know what they are buying.

This new ruling from CARB has nothing to do with FAKE EPA or FAKE EPA-CARB stickers on sandrails imported from China. IF CARB or EPA does nothing about this now, what will change with the new ruling? If they do not enforce the law then all of this is a joke! It will always be easier and cheaper for these companies to simply make FAKE stickers than to comply with the new ruling.

We look forward to competing with your company. Good Luck Thank you.

Sean

Nothing says you can't if you leave the engine exactly as it was certified. Change the fuel delivery or exhaust and voila... you need to recert.

The rules seem better to me now.

-Steve

What parts? I am not waiting on parts. Quite trying to make a point using info you know nothing about. As for engine parts. I can purchase any engine part I wish and it is here within 2-3 days from www.bikebandit.com and I don't have to go to a lawmower shop to get them and hear the guy behind the counter say "You have a lawmower engine in an off road vehicle?"

DEAR Sean

I have never had to wait on parts for Joyner vehicles. What you talkin' bout?

Glade

Steve,

I am a manufacturer and I want to be able to offer a variety of CARB-EPA engines on different model that I sell. That was the way if was under LSI certification. My customers prefer this as well. I think Robin Subaru, Briggs and Stratton and Kohler would disagree with you as well. Please explain to me why you think the new rules are better. We currently have a two years parts and labor warranty on our engines while most Chinese engine have less than 90 days. I think you would agree that the Robin Subaru, Briggs and Stratton and Kohler motors are far better built than the Chinese motors. The Chinese motors are far more likely to break yet the warranty is at best 90 days and that is for parts only. The larger CC engine like the 800cc and 1.0 from China are definately much better engines that the smaller 150cc to 400cc engines. Most of the engines imported from from China are clones of Suzuki so they are decent quality. We enter this arena two years ago to improve the quality of what was offered from China. I know that John from Thunder, Rob from Motous and myself have made great strides in improving the quality of the sandrails that we import. No one disputes this.

Sean

Blah, Blah! This thread is supposed to be about certification, not warranties. We know Kohler makes a good engine, I even paid extra to get one in my lawn tractor. A quick check in the Northern Hydraulics book shows that a 20hp Kohler costs more than I paid for my buggy, and that's before you buy the muffler and fuel tank! Give it a rest, your not making many friends here beating the same ol drum!

How is it that they are not any better?

Now you can cert the engine on the frame for much less money, or do as you did before and recert the engine on the stand. Then as long as you intend to keep the same exhaust, same intake and feul delivery you would be all set for a multitude of applications.

From what I have seen it has always been the case that if you change the exhaust, intake or fuel delivery that the engine needed recert in some way. Now it can be done in the less expensive fashion as well.

Again, how is this not better?


-S

Dear Steve,

When we buy an engine from any of these manufacturers we simply buy the engine. We are not involved in the whole EPA-CARB certification process, these engines come with this certification. While some of the readers of BN prefer to buy engines from China that have little in any warranty, our customers like two years parts and labor. For us, CARB-EPA certification is free. These companies sell thousands of these engines for go-kart and sandrail type vehicles. While some readers of BN trash these engines, the 35hp from Briggs & Stratton will ourrun any engine under 1.0 from China. This engine was never on any lawnmower that we know of. We love this engine.

Sean