Dear Muddinmama,

The sandrails industry does not support testing of engines in sandrails period or any real world testing! They would prefer to get an outright exemption. I have suggested installing hour meters in all sandrails sold in 2007 and collecting the data a year latter so EPA and CARB can come up with a durability test that makes sense. I am advocating a two-year moratorium until this data is collected so we can accurately determine how many hours on average these engines are really driven. Most of the engine suppliers, engine builders and sandrail manufacturers that I spoke to at the trade show last weekend think that even an avid duner in California drives less that 100 hours per year. Therefore in makes no sense to use the current engine standard for durability. Not one manufacturer that I spoke to Sand Show supports testing each engines in each model. One person did speak at the ORBA meeting and he made it very clear that he had EPA on five of his buggies. He supported testing engines in each model because it feathers his bed and not his competition. I guess if you already have EPA on each engine in each model and the rest of the industry did not, it is easy to understand why this person would want to support something that most of the manufacturers could never comply with. It is called market share by using CARB and EPA certification to eliminate the competition. This person cares about his future and the future of his company despite his many statements to the contrary. Thank God most of the people at that meeting figured this out very quickly. The sandrails manufacturers must support what is good for the whole industry and not just themselves individually. I am a typical manufacturer and I have three different models and at least six different engines so I would have to pay for 18 tests at a cost of $10,000.00 per test. This is too much money for each manufacturer to pay for the same engines. Ultimately the industry would like to see a reduced standard for all normally aspirated engines under a certification similar to LSI or an outright exemption for high horsepower engines. They might not like the rules that their customers would have to abide by for racecars. There are some hurdles as racecars can only be driven on a closed course. We have someone at the EPA that is working with ORBA to give us some guidelines to see if this is even feasible. These high horsepower engine will never pass current EPA or CARB standards so the racecar exemption might be the only course. We all drive our sandrails in different place so testing a buggy at Buttercup has nothing to do with mountains around Lake Elsinore or Glamis or the trail back East. Real world testing is just BS. Testing on an engine stand is the only way to go if we have to get CARB and EPA approval for engine used in our sandrails. Getting each company to get their own EO is a very expensive way to go. This industry has many great ideas and this would forces many companies to close. This is not what is good for our industry. Engine suppliers should be able to get certified so they can sell engine packages that meet CARB and EPA. This way we do not have to get 100 tests for the same motor used by 150 sandrail manufacturers. I am on the ORBA Board that represents the Sandrails industry with CARB and EPA. I will do my best to do what is good for the entire industry.

Sean@super-kart.com

I think I will post some other facts so all can read them.

Durability is a manditory program for all manufacturers wether in a chasis or an engine test.

if you test as a chasis the 2 year emissions warranty goes away

Why would you not want durability testing to insure the consumer is geting a well tested machine. ??????????????

to update all

Joyner submitted a durability program to CARB and it was aproved and we just completed it . this was on our 1.6 or 1600cc

test is as follows
0-200 miles break in
200 miles an offical EPA test using FTP procedures at an aproved lab
200-600 real world durability with driving schedule
600 mile 2nd EPA test
600 1000 miles real world durability
1000 mile 3 epa test
we have completed this and we will submit to CARB and it did pass all test.
it is posible for all to pass even the engine manufacturer are saying they will have to modify some parts but they will get them to pass.
All operators maintanince per schedule

see our web sight and you can see the 1600cc white durability car being driven in many conditions.

remmember that if you were in any other type of company there are regulations and ways to negotiate with the government to make it fair for your company.

we have conducted three durability test now and per epa and carb we are the only company to submit and get aproved. why why are the other afraid that their vehicles can not make it.

questions to ask when buying a vehicle
parts
service
durability testing
see videos
check out if they are going to be around in two years to help you.

this is not to say that all are not good operators but there are some that will take you for a ride.

Joyner is not going to stop until we have all vehicle durability tested and also registered in kelly blue book.

we now have GE financing
DSC flooring
Kelly blue book on cammando
Over five hundred machines in stock for delivery daily
Parts
online ordering of any part.

take care

Joyner will go it on its own with CARB and EPA we will not support or be part of any group at this time, We will comply with all the new laws and complete the durability program shortly;

John if I understand you correctly the durability test you must pass is at least 2800 miles long?! I think durabilty certification is a great thing for the consumer but 2800 miles is ridiculous for a trail buggy. How long did it take you to complete the test? How many and what type failures are acceptable and still pass the test?

I couldn't disagree more. My buggy broke inside 15 min. I didn't actually get it running the way it should for 3 months. If we can't hold the manufacturers accountable through a warranty then maybe the government needs to. This will force the standard and quality of buggies way up. So, you will have to forgive me if I don't feel sorry for the buggy makers out there.

SoCrates

you must submit to CARB your durability plane for their aproval. You can request for the aplication less durability miles. It must be in very detail with many controls to make them feel it is a controled durability testing.
It is to protect the consumer and also to insure the polution is under control. All who want to complain that there are laws coming into effect in Jan and that they are unfair must get a realality check because all the complaining a few have done to carb has created a very aware government department now and remmember CARB is task to do their job. ORBA is a great organzation however like I said before all must run their companies as they see fit. ORBA will not be able to stop the Jan deadline .

As far as the durability miles We will submit another plane this week for another machine in our 150 cc we are only purposing a 100 mile test this will demonstrate the durability for five hundred miles we fell. Joyner will soon complete all the requirments for 2007 early. Why are the other companies still complaning. This is good for the consumer testing requirment for China manufactured equipment this will bring up the standard and that is why Joyner is supporting the decissions of both EPA and CARB. We must get rid of some of the JUNK in the market that give the hard working China Manufacturers a bad name. We get calls everyday with consumers from EBAY and other china brands needing parts and what can they do to get their money back,. Again now what company your buying from and if posible visit them.

watch the web for the newest videos from buttercup can a 1600 dune stay tunned for the next video. it will blow your socks off.

Team Joyner,

Well put. Test mileage should be talored to buggy. I am sure you all will work it out with CARB. Thanks for taking the time to explain the process and working to make this sport better.

Soc

And as far as testing a Chasis compared to an engine test.

facts
1 we want to insure that we are delivering a off road vehicle that can stand up to the conditions of the terrian.

water
dirt
sand
snow if applicable

2 The constant bouncing around can cause emisions parts to come loose

muffler
cracked exhuast pipe.
broken motor mounts that causes the exhuast to come loose

3. putting the machine under heavy load

sand dunning up and down the bowls
going fourty mph over the whoppies
breacking through a razor back noose first

this is to mention just a few points. and for the individual that thinks everything is BS then take your machines through the same testing. anyone can get an engine certified on an engine dyno put it to the real test.

We encourage the consumers to hold all the manufacturers at a higher standard. also when buying a vehicle for off road use ask it they have taken through durability. And think about it in the past there once was an 800cc that many bought only to find out that it could not dune and it has the very tall gears. why today do you think that the same companies will not bait and switch again on you. becareful you can not just change a book by its cover because the story will always be the same old BS inside.

Comply with the new laws for the consumers they deserve to now their money is being spent on tested items. I go to china all the time and their ideal of testing is to drive down the street and it runs so it is ok to sell to the US market.

Dear BN Readers,

All of the Robin Subaru and Briggs & Stratton engines that we have used have had durability testing done by the respective manufacturers under the old LSI standard. The old LSI standard is a much higher standard than the current new standard for sandrails. Our engines can be ran 24-7 and they will not break. These engine manufacturers have been the leaders in this field for more than 20 years so durability testing is nothing new to them. The Suzuki engines we use in our sandrail from China have been used in millions of vehicles so they are not going to fall apart because we put them in a sandrail. While some manufacturers need to test their vehicles to see they will stand up to the harsh environment of places like Glamis most manufacturers already know they will. They know this because their sandrails are properly engineered and they use name brand products like FOX, Jamar Brakes, Jamar Microstubs, Porsche 930 CV and Porsche 930 Axles, Race Trim or PRP Seats, Crow Harnesses, DOM 1020 or Chromoly 4130 for the frames etc. The 1.0 liter engine used in our sandrails has been put in millions of vehicles worldwide for example. Our CARB-EPA approved 1.0 liter engine also had durability testing under LSI for Off-Road use. Again this is a much higher standard than the new standard for sandrails today. Our FNR differential is rated for 5-8 higher horsepower than we put in out sandrail. We were one of the first companies to engineer our entire drivetrain to get the perfect ratio for the sandrails we manufactured in China. We test our sandrails on hills for example so steep you lose your front steering. If it lasts in our backyard it will not break in yours! We can go up hills no other Chinese sandrail could ever go up. Why you ask, again it is about engineering.

I do not know one sandrail manufacturer that supports in vehicle testing of engines. We all want to test the engines we want on an engine stand and then put these engines in whatever sandrail we want. Most of the US manufacturers will have to purchase additional parts to make the engines they use EPA-CARB compliant so their cost is going to much more than it was before. Not one of these manufacturers thinks they have to test their sandrail to see if it hold up at Buttercup or Glamis I might add, that is already a given. It is all about good engineering and name brand parts and high quality materials in their frames. We are the only manufacturer that I know of that uses DOM 1020 in the construction of our sandrail in China. EPA and CARB are still working on these issues and all of the manufacturers will have to make some effort to move in this direction by January 1, 2007. We are working with ORBA and other sandrail manufacturers to find some common ground on these issues. The majority of the manufacturers cannot afford to test every engine in every model sandrail they make. Therefore testing on an engine stand is the only viable solution to get the industry in compliance. Thank you.

Sean@super-kart.com

All who go to the dunes see everyday the larger manufacturer vehciles being pulled back to camp. For any manufacturer to say that because you use name brand parts they will not break it BS BS BS It is clear that some in the industry will go their own way and some will join the group that ORBA is forming. I am happy for both. Joyner will test each vehicle to its aplication. Ford GM Honda yammaha polaris and all the brand names test current and new vehicles daily it is not hard to complete the CARB and EPA testing so stop making excuses and do it for the consumers. Were are their test videos for all to watch and see all the so called best of the best of the best of nothing. I will say I have seen nothing. Testing is part of operating a company.

John,

The standard that you are using are lower than the standards that Robin Subaru and Briggs & Stratton have been passing for 20 years. Why do you think lower durability standards are better for your customer? I agree, I think you should test your sandrails if you think they need testing. Our sandrails are over engineered and we have tested them long before CARB or EPA changed the rules. Again you do what you want to do and we will do what we think is best for customers. We clearly do not agree with you and the position that you are advocating. That does not make you or I right or wrong but this is America so we are entitled to our opinion and how we want to run our business. We are going down another path that we think is good for the entire industry and not just our company. Last time I checked (last week) ORBA agreed with our position. Good Luck.

Sean@Team-Moto.Com